Botox Bad? -- Migration to brain stem

Botox, neurontin etc
superuse
Senior Veteran
Senior Veteran
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:08 pm

Botox Bad? -- Migration to brain stem

Post by superuse »

There have been several studies mentioned over the past few years showing Botox to be ineffective for CPPS. (and perhaps other pain)
In addition the anecdotal reports I have seen from 50 or so people over the years have been mediocre to severely aggravating. Several cases and symptoms seem to support the article below. Botox may have only relatively recently been approved for pelvic pain, or perhaps pain in general (usually back). Anything resembling efficacy seems to have been the exception not the rule

So if there weren't enough to question its use this Newsweek article came out a while ago. Don't know if its posted elsewhere.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2 ... frown.html
A New Reason to Frown
Apr 12, 2008
Does Botox get into the brain? Troubling research contradicts earlier findings about the treatment.


The way it usually works is, the rats and mice die first. Or at least get sick first. Or at the very least, show some adverse effect first—as in, before people do. The reason countless lab animals have given their lives during the testing of experimental drugs is to allow manufacturers and regulators to see that a compound might be toxic, even deadly, before millions of people use it. And if the compound does look a little dodgy, the lab-animal tests uncover the reason—how the compound affects the liver, say, or reaches the brain. Not surprisingly, these "preclinical tests" (that is, those performed before testing on humans) were especially rigorous for botulinum. One of the deadliest poisons in nature and a possible bioterrorism agent, this neurotoxin reached the market, in very dilute doses, starting in 1989 as Botox. A big reason Botox and its cousins, such as Myobloc, were OK'd was that preclinical testing showed that after being injected, they did not travel along the body's highways—nerve cells—to the brain and spinal cord. Yes, there was some evidence the toxin slipped into the bloodstream or the lymph system, but Botox in the bloodstream cannot enter the brain, says its manufacturer.

Oops. In a reversal of the usual sequence in science, researchers have discovered, after millions of people have received the drug, something fundamental about how Botox can act. Contrary to what turned up in preclinical testing, botulinum toxin can travel along neurons from the injection site into the brain, at least in lab animals. Researchers at Italy's Institute of Neuroscience injected rats and mice with botulinum neurotoxin A in doses comparable to those used in people. (Strains are named A, B and E, depending on where the common soil bacteria that produce them live; A is Botox, B is Myobloc, which is used for severe back pain.) Neurons at the injection site—the whisker muscles—absorbed some of the toxin and passed it along to other neurons they connected to, the researchers report this month in The Journal of Neuroscience. Within three days, the toxin had migrated from the whisker muscles to the brainstem, where it disrupted neuronal activity. "The discovery was quite serendipitous ... and surprising," Matteo Caleo, who led the study, told the journal Science. "A significant portion of the toxin is active where it's not intended to be."
That stands in contrast to the findings of earlier studies, which suggested that the neurotoxin is completely broken down at the injection site into innocuous compounds and does not migrate beyond it—or if it does, only into the bloodstream or lymph system. Botox's manufacturer, Allergan, thinks those older studies are more credible. "This study is not conclusive," says spokesperson Cathy Taylor, "and other published studies using botulinum toxin type A contradict these findings." Contrary to Allergan's statement that the Italian scientists "injected the material directly into the brain," however, they injected the neurotoxin into facial muscles—and from there it found its way to the brainstem. "This is a new pathway, and we need to think about the implications of this," says Edgar Salazar-Grueso, chief medical officer of Solstice Neurosciences, which makes Myobloc. The new study, he says, means the original preclinical testing of Botox and its cousins "can be interpreted in a different light."
Something else that can be seen in a different light is the hospitalizations and deaths that have been reported following Botox injections. In 2005 scientists at the U.S. Food and Drug Administration analyzed 1,437 such "adverse events" between 1989, when Botox was approved for eye spasms, and 2003. Most came from people who got Botox to erase their wrinkles, but the 28 deaths occurred in people who had received it for medical purposes. The FDA didn't do much in response, but since then it has been getting new reports of serious adverse reactions in people receiving Botox, and launched a safety review. An analysis of the FDA's database by the advocacy group Public Citizen found 16 deaths from Botox or Myobloc. Most involved children with serious diseases like cerebral palsy, who got the injections for muscle spasms (an unapproved, though legal, use). But the agency has "evidence that [serious reactions and even death] can happen in a broader population," said the FDA's Russell Katz. "Is it possible with cosmetic use? Possibly."

Those unapproved uses are another concern of the agency. Last month Allergan revealed that federal prosecutors were investigating it for promoting the non-FDA-approved use of Botox for headaches, though doctors are free to prescribe a drug as they see fit. Allergan says it's cooperating.

Botox and Myobloc carry labels warning of possible adverse reactions near the injection site such as drooping eyelids, and of severe difficulty swallowing in patients with neuromuscular disorders. The FDA's Katz said that people getting Botox for cosmetic reasons should "make their own personal best judgment about this" and "be aware that there's the potential for" the neurotoxin to spread. With the new evidence that Botox can spread to the brain in ways that preclinical tests failed to turn up, it's enough to bring back those Botox-erased frown lines.
Age:43 | Onset Age:36 | Symptoms: First urinary and backside, golf ball feeling, now ok (no heavy exercise) . Major onset seemed to be with heavy coughing spell , felt "tearing" or nerve pain in rectum/prostate. | Helped By:Hot showers,sleep.Worsened By: Type A obsessiveness ... Stressing, what-if thinking, weights.
Not a doctor. -

The usual... anxiety prone programmer (my case), accountant, lawyer or self employed sitting 50 hrs/week combined with compulsively exercising on a bike,weights or running to compensate for stress. Also aka "graduate student syndrome" New email sigma556@hotmail
User avatar
Jay
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 745
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:28 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Botox Bad? -- Migration to brain stem

Post by Jay »

Pelvic floor Botox was brought up during my last visit to UoMiami for pain management. It was emphasized that it was quite experimental at this point, however, and I wasn't pressured.

Didn't think I would go for it then, and I still don't.
I am not a physician. This is not medical advice. Consult your doctor!

Age: 26 Onset Age: 17 Symptoms: Shooting, nerve-like pains throughout the penis, which abruptly hit and leave. Testicular pain, perineum pain, burning/irritative urination, extended pain after ejaculation. Occasionally, some allodynia or ache in the coccyx/sacrum/thigh/buttocks/legs. Diagnosis: Pelvic floor dysfunction, degenerated lumbar disk, and mildly herniated lumbar disk. Helped By: Physical therapy, pain management doctor, hot baths, therapy pool, stretching regimen, breathing exercises, relaxation, distraction. Worsened By: Arousal/ejaculation (worst), constipation, panicking/obsessing, other triggers depend upon current symptoms. Tests/Prior Treatments: Too many antibiotics to count, multiple urine tests (all normal), testicular ultrasound (normal), bladder and renal ultrasound (normal), lumbar and pelvic MRI with and w/o contrast (revealed disk problems), Elavil 25mg (caused retention), Flomax 0.4mg.
guy97
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:21 pm

Re: Botox Bad? -- Migration to brain stem

Post by guy97 »

My PT is emphasizing Botox would be an absolute last resort, if other severe measures (lidocane blocks, for instance) fail, and PT continues to give no relief.
Age: 26 Onset Age: 23 (January 2011, UTI trigger) Symptoms: Chronic penile tip pain, burning urination, stinging with ejaculation. Helped By: W-A protocol, Elavil Worsened By: UrinationRecovery Status: 50% Location: Chicago
superuse
Senior Veteran
Senior Veteran
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:08 pm

Re: Botox Bad? -- Migration to brain stem

Post by superuse »

Several experiences from Botox on pain forums, note that patient "Y" (below) had a severely bad pain reaction and flare for months after injection in pelvic floor. Actually Botox seems safer than steroid or lidocaine nerve blocks. A significant minority of nerve block recipients have increased pain problems for months or years, with the great majority receiving no pain relief.

Not sure what to think of small amounts of Botox injected directly into identified trigger points. What we are talking about here is large doses into large muscles of the pelvis.

Other than trigger point Botox, neither one seems worth the risk.

X wrote:Y, what form did the severe negative reaction from Botox take? I developed severe fatigue after Botox (said to be a 1:1000 event). I was housebound for two years and am still significantly restricted, although improving, at the three year mark. All the best with your recovery from surgery. Stephanie
------
Pelvic pain since 1986. Symptoms relentless following fall onto marble floor in 2003. PNE surgery 2004. No improvement.
Y wrote:X, One more detail regarding Botox. A week after Botox I had blood work done in preparation for my annual physical. 2 days later, I got a call from my GP saying that my test results showed a severe immune problem and that he was very concerned. I do not remember what it was (ANA?) but I redid the blood test 3 months later and everything was normal.
Age:43 | Onset Age:36 | Symptoms: First urinary and backside, golf ball feeling, now ok (no heavy exercise) . Major onset seemed to be with heavy coughing spell , felt "tearing" or nerve pain in rectum/prostate. | Helped By:Hot showers,sleep.Worsened By: Type A obsessiveness ... Stressing, what-if thinking, weights.
Not a doctor. -

The usual... anxiety prone programmer (my case), accountant, lawyer or self employed sitting 50 hrs/week combined with compulsively exercising on a bike,weights or running to compensate for stress. Also aka "graduate student syndrome" New email sigma556@hotmail
guy97
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:21 pm

Re: Botox Bad? -- Migration to brain stem

Post by guy97 »

Thanks for all the advice and warnings. If I do decide to go this route, it will be after a LOT of caution and preparation.

In my case, it would be a direct trigger-point injection (anterior levator ani). But my doc has a lot of other things she wants to try first.
Age: 26 Onset Age: 23 (January 2011, UTI trigger) Symptoms: Chronic penile tip pain, burning urination, stinging with ejaculation. Helped By: W-A protocol, Elavil Worsened By: UrinationRecovery Status: 50% Location: Chicago