Another Crippled by yoga -- albeit atomic yoga (ballet)

Male pelvic pain, prostatitis, IC
superuse
Senior Veteran
Senior Veteran
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:08 pm

Another Crippled by yoga -- albeit atomic yoga (ballet)

Post by superuse »

13 1/2 years in pain -- this is fairly typical of a female dance (ballet) student showing up on pelvic pain boards although possibly more severe than most. I believe a recent new-comer to this board described his workouts as involving "tons of stretching".

Dr Wise in his book mentions "stretch injury", as one cause of CPPS, numerous people disabled on the other pelvic pain boards mention Yoga in their routines before onset, the other boards are loaded with female dance and fitness aficionados, numerous people here mention yoga before chronic prostatitis / chronic pelvic pain syndrome onset, one individual on this board mentioned #2 problems when adding Yoga to his chronic prostatitis / chronic pelvic pain syndrome treatment regimen, I had a similar response and we have a current member bedridden as a result of downgrading to power yoga from full out weights etc because of chronic prostatitis / chronic pelvic pain syndrome symptoms.

Doesn't mention if she was an avid cyclist, runner or weightlifter. This usually isn't necessary for the ballet gals as their regimen is rigorous enough, however with full out fitness freaks, additional weights, and elliptical wouldn't be uncommon.

A very interesting article in the New York Times.
Doctors Struggle to Treat Mysterious and Unbearable Pain

By KATHLEEN McGRORY
Published: May 30, 2006

It was supposed to be a typical ballet class. Cynthia Toussaint, then a senior dance major at the University of California, Irvine, engaged in her usual stretching routine: she raised her left leg to the barre and slowly bent her upper body down to her right knee.

For a moment, she delighted in the long stretch. But as she returned to an upright position, she felt a sudden pop in her hamstring. "It felt like a guitar string had been plucked and it had broken," said Ms. Toussaint, who is now 45.

An intense burning sensation followed; it felt as if her leg had been doused in gasoline and set on fire, she said. The next day, the college athletics trainer determined that she had pulled her hamstring. But even years later, the pain would not subside. It migrated to her other leg, leaving her bedridden for nearly a decade, and overtook her vocal cords, leaving her temporarily mute.

All the while, doctors puzzled over and even doubted her mysterious condition.

Ms. Toussaint now knows that she is among an estimated one million Americans living with complex regional pain syndrome, a nerve disorder formerly known as reflex sympathetic dystrophy syndrome. For patients with the disorder, a trauma as mild as a fractured wrist or a twisted ankle can cause the nerves to misfire, so much so that intense pain messages are constantly sent to the brain.

For the past 150 years, so little was known about complex regional pain syndrome that it was often diagnosed as psychosomatic. But doctors now believe that the condition complicates 1 of every 1,200 traumatic injuries. And desperate patients are turning to new, often unproven, drugs and treatments. "It is still quite a mysterious condition," said Dr. Scott M. Fishman, a pain management specialist at the University of California, Davis, and the author of "The War on Pain."

"It raises doubts in the eyes of doctors and the people that are looking for hard lab evidence or good imaging confirmation," Dr. Fishman said. "With this condition, we simply don't have that."

Baffling as it may be, the syndrome is not new to the medical literature. It was first documented by Dr. S. Weir Mitchell, a Civil War surgeon. But few physicians are familiar with it; the average patient sees 8 to 10 doctors before a diagnosis is made, according to a recent survey by American RSDHope, a support organization.

Pain is the hallmark of the condition, which outranks cancer as the most painful disease on the McGill Pain Index. For some, the sensation remains in one place, most commonly one of the extremities. For others, it spreads throughout the body, making even a light touch or minor changes in temperature agonizing.

For Ms. Toussaint, as for many other patients, the pain was life altering. When she tore her hamstring, she was on the verge of completing her bachelor's degree. She was also being considered for a part on the television series "Fame." But the injury left her in debilitating pain. She could no longer stand on her own or leave her house; riding in a car on the bumpy California roads was torture.

Ms. Toussaint dropped out of school and fell into a deep depression, she said. It took 13 1/2 years for her disorder to be diagnosed. Dozens of doctors told her it was "all in her head"; one even suggested she suffered from stage fright.

Without clear clues as to what induces the syndrome or who is particularly susceptible, doctors say that treating it is a challenge. Sympathetic nerve blocks can reduce the pain, and doctors say the relief often lasts longer than the anesthetic.

More than two dozen drugs are also being used to treat the pain. But none of the medications, which range from acetaminophen and ibuprofen to morphine and methadone, have been approved by the Food and Drug Administration for this use.

"The myth is that this condition isn't treatable, but the truth is that it responds to the same kinds of treatments that have been found effective for other neuropathic pain," said Dr. Anne Louise Oaklander, director of the nerve injury unit at Massachusetts General Hospital and an associate professor of neurology at Harvard.

Dr. Russell K. Portenoy, chairman of the department of pain medicine and palliative care at Beth Israel Medical Center in New York, added that treatment was "a trial and error" process.

Doctors tend to use the drugs that are most commonly prescribed for other conditions before the drugs that are less commonly used," he said. "But in many cases, doctors need to perform sequential trials to find out which drug or combination of drugs helps the most."

Dr. Portenoy said he is a consultant for drug companies but not on work related to the syndrome or its treatment.

Another treatment is to implant an electrical stimulator near the base of the spinal cord or the injured limb. The device sends low-level electrical signals to the spinal cord or to specific nerves and blocks pain signals from reaching the brain.

Dr. Robert J. Schwartzman of the Drexel University College of Medicine in Philadelphia is skeptical of the electrical stimulators. Although he first began implanting them in patients in 1986, he no longer does. "Long term," he said, "stimulators don't work. From what I've seen, they wear out and then they stop working."

Dr. Schwartzman treats the condition with ketamine, an anesthetic that blocks one of the body's pain receptors. In most cases, this five-day inpatient therapy reduced the pain significantly for three to six months, he said.

In addition, a 10-day outpatient procedure — more than 1,200 people are on a waiting list for it — is being tested in a controlled experiment. Although the trial has been approved by the F.D.A., it is awaiting approval by Drexel's institutional review board.

Dr. Schwartzman has also sent the most extreme cases — the 30 patients who were found to be intractable to all other treatments — to Germany for five days of prolonged ketamine anesthesia, enough to put them into a coma.

Ten patients were completely relieved of their pain, Dr. Schwartzman said, noting that the treatment has not been approved in the United States.

Some doctors have strong concerns about the ketamine treatments. Dr. Oaklander, for one, believes there is not enough research to support its effectiveness, especially in light of the risks.

Either way, said Ms. Toussaint, who has not had the therapy herself, "It says a lot about this disease that we are willing to be put in comas." New research is also helping doctors understand the pain syndrome. In early 2006, a team at Massachusetts General was the first to identify organic nerve injuries in a large group of people with the disorder. The research, published in February in the journal Pain, confirmed that the syndrome was not psychosomatic, said Dr. Oaklander, who led the study.

This progress is promising for Ms. Toussaint. Since her illness was diagnosed in 1995, medications have reduced her pain, enabling her to stand and speak again. She and her partner, John Garrett, now manage For Grace, a nonprofit organization dedicated to increasing awareness of complex regional pain syndrome. Ms. Toussaint is also running for the California State Assembly on a health-based platform.

"People see me and they recognize me as the ballerina, but they don't remember the name of my disease," she said recently, "but that's all about to change."
Age:43 | Onset Age:36 | Symptoms: First urinary and backside, golf ball feeling, now ok (no heavy exercise) . Major onset seemed to be with heavy coughing spell , felt "tearing" or nerve pain in rectum/prostate. | Helped By:Hot showers,sleep.Worsened By: Type A obsessiveness ... Stressing, what-if thinking, weights.
Not a doctor. -

The usual... anxiety prone programmer (my case), accountant, lawyer or self employed sitting 50 hrs/week combined with compulsively exercising on a bike,weights or running to compensate for stress. Also aka "graduate student syndrome" New email sigma556@hotmail
User avatar
garyholc
Old Hand
Old Hand
Posts: 408
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:11 am
Location: Cardiff, South Wales UK

Re: Another Crippled by yoga -- albeit atomic yoga (ballet)

Post by garyholc »

I have wondered myself about stretching sometimes, should we do any at all? If our muscles are dysfunctional, would it not be better to rest them, let them heal, without making them stretch and pull them all shapes. I guess there is no harm in gentle stretching every day, but for many of us, we will do it until we feel pulling sensations, desperate to get rid of the aches and pains, and maybe this is making things worse.

I do find it interesting however that if the condition we have is due to trigger points and muscles shortening, then surely people with good fitness, who do regular stretching, yoga etc. would not be expected to be seen with CPPS. Its certainly an interesting thought.....
Age: 33 | Onset Age: 32 Initial Symptoms: Frequent urination Current Symptoms: The odd feeling of frequency but not much else Helped By: Not thinking about it, hot bath, red wine, light exercise, Bowen technique seems to help, getting on with my life Worsened By: catastrophic thinking, worrying things will get worse, feeling depressed, reading websites too often! Work! Sitting in work all day isn't good!! Current Progress : Since 1st Sept 08, no pain!!! :)
User avatar
webslave
Maintenance
Maintenance
Posts: 11432
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 3:18 pm
Location: Please give your location so we can help better

Re: Another Crippled by yoga -- albeit atomic yoga (ballet)

Post by webslave »

Just to clarify: CRPS is not CPPS. There is no question that stretching is of benefit to most men with CPPS.
Good News! The great ProstaQ is BACK at last! You must try it.

HAS THIS SITE HELPED YOU?
Say Thanks by donating. Keep the
Forum alive on the Internet!
PayPal link at end of page ↓

Contact me at support at ucpps.men
superuse
Senior Veteran
Senior Veteran
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:08 pm

Re: Another Crippled by yoga -- albeit atomic yoga (ballet)

Post by superuse »

Its unusual how the two are similar for many though. Perhaps the central sensitization theory mentioned here by our researchers, along with adrenaline issues. CPPS symptoms famously migrate (driving men nuts trying to find cause and effect) to arms, fingers, down to heels/toes/arches knees. Back problems neck and sinus abound. Feverish fibromyalgic symptoms bedridding people for a while (this lady a long while). I myself had a difficult time talking for a while (you don't realize how you use your pelvic floor along with your diaphram to talk at even an average level until it goes oversensitive.)

In theory we wanna get to the point that if we lose our job, the house floods with no insurance, our wife files for divorce, and we have a death in the family (this stuff tends to come in bursts... when it rains it pours) other than the "normal stress" we would want no groin symptoms like anyone else.

If anything I would put max emphasis on lack of heavy exercise, paradoxical relaxation on an hourly basis at work as described in Wise's book (with the timer), individual sessions during the week and TP therapy. Limiting to non strenuous stretches in HITP. No need to become stretch armstrong.

I don't even know what "Power' or "bikram" yoga is. My guess it is something to take the old eastern art (Years of lilias yoga and you) to something profitable with books, plastic covered weights and doo-dads made in Chinese labor camps with a 5000% mark-up. Always remember the ladies dominate the Yoga scene because of their lack of testerone, (which toughens muscle, bulls are castrated because of this to marble the meat) and a relatively inflexible woman may many times outperform a flexible man.

--jjf

webslave wrote:Just to clarify: CRPS is not CPPS. There is no question that stretching is of benefit to most men with CPPS.
Age:43 | Onset Age:36 | Symptoms: First urinary and backside, golf ball feeling, now ok (no heavy exercise) . Major onset seemed to be with heavy coughing spell , felt "tearing" or nerve pain in rectum/prostate. | Helped By:Hot showers,sleep.Worsened By: Type A obsessiveness ... Stressing, what-if thinking, weights.
Not a doctor. -

The usual... anxiety prone programmer (my case), accountant, lawyer or self employed sitting 50 hrs/week combined with compulsively exercising on a bike,weights or running to compensate for stress. Also aka "graduate student syndrome" New email sigma556@hotmail
superuse
Senior Veteran
Senior Veteran
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:08 pm

Re: Another Crippled by yoga -- albeit atomic yoga (ballet)

Post by superuse »

More (atomic) yoga fun.

Another recent intro of an different individual (female Mrs A.) from another site sent to me. Probably 60-70% of pelvic pain sufferers may be women, as are most of the pelvic pain PT's. A large number of them are involved with athletics --bike, running, weights or dance (really really advanced yoga). The athletics may or may not be along with endometriosis and associated Hysterectomy.

Did this woman really have endometriosis, ot something that required surgical intervention? Was her pelvic pain really functional (muscular) from sitting hours a week along with athletics and diagnosed with "female problems" requiring surgery whose symptoms may mimic CPPS? Even if tests were positive for some many positive tests may have women asymptomatic for years or their entire lives. Did the stress of the associated surgeries and possible continued exercise make things worse, or just temporarily worse and then about the same.

Of course the paragraph that stands out is the one added almost last as an after thought. Self described Mover and a shaker (type A) who is actively involved with ballet, athletics (a bike and weights?). Also probably has a desk job sitting hours a day.

Ballet alone shows up directly in about 20-25% of female pain patients. Those that do it and don't mention much lifestyle issues in their posts may raise this #. I doubt many women (perhaps 5-6%) above age 25 or so actively pursue dance. (It has a high attrition rate with various joint and ligament problems outside of pelvic issues)This would make its incidence in pelvic pain 300% or so more common than amongst the general population.
Any biking may well be 500% or more over the general female population. (the men seem to be more into bikes, while exercycles may reduce this frequency a bit)

Anyway the ladies can be instructive as they are the majority of pelvic pain patients and many of the therapies used n us men were developed years before by ladies for ladies. Doesn't say if childbirth was involved.

Her intro or story is similar in form to many on the men's forums.

I have come in quietly several times and just read some of the stuff going on with others. I had to wait until I could read and not cry before I could even consider posting.

Approx 10 yrs ago I was diagnosed with very severe endometriosis. I had a lap surgery circa 2003. Pain stopped for approx 6 mos. When it returned, I tried a chemo therapy (can't remember the name of drug at the moment). That didn't work, but it did cause all sorts of other problems...permanant loss of bone density (went in with osteopenia - not good), permanent vision loss, permanent memory loss - both short & long term. Drug was tested for men with testicular cancer-told Drs approved for women with endo & uterine fibroids (I had both), but neglected to tell Drs that there were permanent long term effects on many women.

Pain kept getting worse.Interventional Radiologist thought that uterine fibroid was causing pressure on nerve. Did controlled Uterine Fibroid Embolism Dec 2004. Pain still got worse. Referred me to Gyno Oncologist. Feb 2005 went thru total Hysterectomy with partial colon resection. Endometriosis was again really bad after just a couple of years from last "clean out". He noticed nerve involvement, as well as endo on every organ in sight. Still pain continued. No Dr could figure out why. Best they could come up with was that it was in my head! Of Course!! That is where any problem any woman suffers! A woman's pain is never "real"!

Did pelvic floor PT for 6 mos. No help. Did vaginal biofeedback/TENS unit. No help. Did Acupuncture. No help. Did healing touch. No help. Meditation, stone therapy, OMT therapy, cacoon therapy, chacra therapy, etc, etc. No help. Seriously considered "doing myself in" as way to make pain STOP. Found Dr that would assist with opiads. That helped -kicked some of the top off the pain- improved with concentrating on meditation.

Diagnosed with MS. Diagnosed with no MS. Diagnosed with Iritated bowl syndrome. Diagnosed with no iritated bowel. Diagnosed with leasons on brain. No leasions on brain. Leasions on Spine. No leasions on spine. Restless leg syndrome. No restless leg syndrome. Depression. Phantom Pain. Overly sensitized nerves. Munchhousin. Etc, Etc, Etc. You name it!

Finally found PN on internet. Then finally found Dr that heard of and "treats"PN. DR confirmed PN. Said it was no big deal. Jut need to "get past the pain", and go back to work! Mind over matter!!! PN won't get any worse -- might not get better, but won't get worse. Making way more of the pain that what it really is! Just deal with it. 6 mos later I am worse!!!

Can't sit for more than 20 min -- tops. Once I've sat that long, can't sit any more -- its not like I can do a little streatch and back to sitting! Can not lay down in bed! Live my life - day & nite in a recliner chair. Cannot walk ANY distance - use a scooter. Can only sit in a scooter for so long, too. can't get out in winter if any precip on ground.

Lost many friends - smart people-would never guess they would walk away! Not in a million years! No one knows/understands PN! Many assume it is just a matter of "finding the right Dr" -- not so easy as you know. My pain is not in the back -- it is in the front -- no one will touch me with a 10 ft pole for numbing shots. Especially with "mystery" nerve from thurasic spine.

********
Once was ballet dancer, athlete, mover & shaker! Now I stop and smell the roses. I have to!! I go too slow for anything else, and I have to find ANY POSSIBLE "SILVER LINING"!!
*********

Sorry about crazy short-stop prose. Just had to get it out. Sorry!!

Do have wonderful and supportive husband, and really cute and loving toy poodle! Family, however, provides virtually no support. Trying to make "new" set of friends to re-build appropriate support system. Some "old" friends "try". Very hard for them to see a "broken" woman who was a true "mover & shaker" just 5 yrs ago!! They don't know what to say. They don't understand what I can/can't do. They don't understand that I have good moments and bad moments (not even good or bad days!)!!

No health insurance. No savings account to speak of. Limited income, but not considered "poverty". Might as well be!

Couldn't get disability -- worked for state. Was very limited with time to get "diagnosis" and any Dr who has any understanding of condition. Ran out of time!! Denied disability! State makes their own rules!! Not eligable for medicare/medicaid -- didn't pay into FICA -- paid into state system instead.

So, there is my gigantic "nut shell". Sorry so long. Still, thanks so much for listening!
Age:43 | Onset Age:36 | Symptoms: First urinary and backside, golf ball feeling, now ok (no heavy exercise) . Major onset seemed to be with heavy coughing spell , felt "tearing" or nerve pain in rectum/prostate. | Helped By:Hot showers,sleep.Worsened By: Type A obsessiveness ... Stressing, what-if thinking, weights.
Not a doctor. -

The usual... anxiety prone programmer (my case), accountant, lawyer or self employed sitting 50 hrs/week combined with compulsively exercising on a bike,weights or running to compensate for stress. Also aka "graduate student syndrome" New email sigma556@hotmail