Pigeon Pose Stretch (Stage 1) is Still Providing 100% Relief

Even more successes. Registration required to view.
User avatar
LightningTree
Sage
Sage
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 6:50 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Pigeon Pose Stretch (Stage 1) is Still Providing 100% Relief

Post by LightningTree »

Hey everybody,

As some of you know, I've been able to remove all of my remaining symptoms by doing the first stage of a stretch called "The Pigeon Pose" from Yoga. It continues to work wonders, but only on the days when I take the time to do it right.


This video added to this post by webslave in 2013

After experimenting with it for a month and a half, I've discovered a few things:
  • When I do it right, it makes the upper part of my rectum itch in the 11 O'clock and 1 O'clock positions (where 12 is facing towards the front of your body (anterior) and 6 is facing your back (posterior)). In previous attempts, it created a pulling sensation there, but at most now, I get an itching sensation. I believe the itching is coming from tissue just outside the rectum. Possibly a muscle like the levator ani muscle, the psoas as it passes through the core pelvis, or ligaments and connective tissue related to them. It may however be some other tissue. I would love to do this stretch for a doctor in a vertical MRI so they can see what it is that is being affected.
  • After doing this stretch I can sit for a day with no discomfort, and my pelvis feels "normal', and I had forgotten what that was like. That means no excessive sweating, no swelling feeling, and none of the awful pain with which we are all familiar. Oddly enough, the place where the 'itch'/pulling sensation occurs if a good 3 to 4 inches above where pain appears (on the perineum floor. rectum and testicles) while sitting without having done the stretch that day.
  • Last year I went on a vacation to Britain and had a great time hiking around the countryside. When walking 10 or so miles a day, within a day or two I started to get an itching sensation in those two spots (mentioned above) and then my symptoms disappeared for over a month. (They slowly returned after that, although never as bad) I think this stretch is having the same affect as that extensive walking was having.
I am going to be putting together a free web site with pictures and advice on how to do the stretch, so in case any of you happen to have what I believe are TPs up there in the psoas or levator ani can benefit from adding this stretch to your regimen.

From talking with a yoga teacher and personal experience, here are a few preliminary tips:

1) In pictures of the stretch on the Web, the person is often showed with their front foot 'hooked'. Don't do this. Try to align it with your leg and stretch out the toes.

2) The rear leg should be DIRECTLY behind you. I have found that if it is not, that is, if it is slightly off to the side while behind you, the stretch does not have the desired effect.

3) Where as, in the REAL pigeon pose, you start to bend forward to increase hip flexion, what helps me is to arch my back backwards. This has a levarging effect on the sacral spine and the musculature attached to it.

Anyway, I encourage people who are doing Stanford/Wise-Anderson Protocol stretching or some other physical therapy regime to talk with your PT about this stretch. They can contact me if they want.

I am 100% confident in the effectiveness of this stretch with respect to my case. The correlation between the stretch and improvement is phenomenally good. It is as good, if not better, than the 'vacation phenomena' many of us experience because I can do it anywhere at any time. It can't overcome strong psychological stressors, however.

As requested, I've updated this post with some pictures and some commentary about them. Here are a few pictures from outside sources. Please refer to them! :smile: And see your doctor about what is good for you or not.

Image
Here is the site this comes from: http://www.golfgalaxy.com/galaxy/dept.a ... ept_id=953

Notice her front foot is hooked, don't do that. And keep that back leg directly behin d you. Do not let it splay out to the side at all. I mean AT ALL. If you find your hips are very uneven, try putting your hands on your hips and pushing them to be even (hard to balance while doing this, though.) Then put your hands behind your head and arch your back. Try to keep your hips directly under you , but that is physically impossible, so just make it sort of a goal.

This woman has her foot pointed correctly:
Image
For more information, here is the link to the site of this picture:http://www.jettymag.com/Spring2006/vita ... poses.html

This woman must really do yoga! Believe it or not,t he toe/foot position is
important because it sets up tension in the front leg. If you let your foot bend your set up the knee to set up the upper muscles to know maintain the appropriate muscle tension into the hips.

This woman is doing a great job in hip positioning and in getting her back straight up:
Image
For more information, here is the link to the site of this picture. http://www.stumptuous.com/cms/displayarticle.php?aid=55

Our goal is to deslope the back as much as possible by leaning backwards in this pose, but the reality is the pose probably gets its name from the curve of your back, hips, and legs, being similar to the slope of the pigeon's back while doing this pose.

Please keep in mind that in all of the pictures the people shown are very flexible and have their pelvic floor all the way down on the ground. I cannot do this and do not need to do this in order for the stretch to benefit me. I can only get my pelvis down to within a few inches of the floor. This is not critical. Do lower it as much as you possibly can and get that back leg back as far as you can, and then raise up your back and make sure to get your hips even at the end. Then arch your back backwards with your hands behind your head. That is key. At least, that is what works for me.

At this time, I cannot form any good hypotheses for why this works. It might be muscle TPs up in the pevis with no external access. It might be sacral spine positioning. It might be ligament agitation or nerve pinching around ligaments. It is hard to say. But if any doctor was interested, I could reproduce the effect in a laboratory and we could determine what is going on up there.
Last edited by LightningTree on Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:49 pm, edited 15 times in total.

This is not medical advice, and I am NOT a doctor of medicine or a related field.
* Age:33 Onset: February 2004.
* 99.9% IMPROVEMENT in 2.5 Years with the first year being the really hard part
* Current Symptoms: Mild irritation of perineal muscles on occasion. Relieved for days at a time by a specific stretch (see below).
* Initial Symptoms: Terrible penile, urethral, rectal, and perineal burning/aching with addition afferent sensations.
* Current Treatments: Deep stretching of the legs and pelvis. Most effective: Deep psoas and levitar ani stretch using the first phase of the "pigeon pose" from Yoga. When a deep pulling is felt in the middle of the pelvis next to the upper rectum, symptoms are completely alleviated for several days.
* Past Treatments Hyperprotection of the perineum for 1.7 years, Walking, Rectal biofeedback, Stanford/Wise-Anderson Protocol, Conditioned deep relaxation practice, Men's Multi-Vitamin and an Extra B-complex pill, all seemed to help.
healthyforlife
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:40 pm

Post by healthyforlife »

Can you please post a picture up?
Age: | Onset Age: | Symptoms: | Helped By: | Worsened By:
User avatar
LightningTree
Sage
Sage
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 6:50 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Post by LightningTree »

If this stretch doesn't work for you, the lesson here is to keep trying things, and find out what works for you. I've spent 2.5 years investigating approaches. Flexibility of the pelvis and stress are the two key issues in managing my condition.

This is not medical advice, and I am NOT a doctor of medicine or a related field.
* Age:33 Onset: February 2004.
* 99.9% IMPROVEMENT in 2.5 Years with the first year being the really hard part
* Current Symptoms: Mild irritation of perineal muscles on occasion. Relieved for days at a time by a specific stretch (see below).
* Initial Symptoms: Terrible penile, urethral, rectal, and perineal burning/aching with addition afferent sensations.
* Current Treatments: Deep stretching of the legs and pelvis. Most effective: Deep psoas and levitar ani stretch using the first phase of the "pigeon pose" from Yoga. When a deep pulling is felt in the middle of the pelvis next to the upper rectum, symptoms are completely alleviated for several days.
* Past Treatments Hyperprotection of the perineum for 1.7 years, Walking, Rectal biofeedback, Stanford/Wise-Anderson Protocol, Conditioned deep relaxation practice, Men's Multi-Vitamin and an Extra B-complex pill, all seemed to help.
User avatar
LightningTree
Sage
Sage
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 6:50 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Post by LightningTree »

This is the next stage of the pigeon pose:

Image
From http://www.consultdrminas.com/eng/yoga_dp/poses02.php.

I cannot do this step. I simply cannot lift my back foot up very far. So far, I have not experimented much with that part of the pose. But I will in the future.

In any case, note the arching back. That is what is key for me to benefit from this stretch. I currently do this without trying to lift the rear foot up.

This is not medical advice, and I am NOT a doctor of medicine or a related field.
* Age:33 Onset: February 2004.
* 99.9% IMPROVEMENT in 2.5 Years with the first year being the really hard part
* Current Symptoms: Mild irritation of perineal muscles on occasion. Relieved for days at a time by a specific stretch (see below).
* Initial Symptoms: Terrible penile, urethral, rectal, and perineal burning/aching with addition afferent sensations.
* Current Treatments: Deep stretching of the legs and pelvis. Most effective: Deep psoas and levitar ani stretch using the first phase of the "pigeon pose" from Yoga. When a deep pulling is felt in the middle of the pelvis next to the upper rectum, symptoms are completely alleviated for several days.
* Past Treatments Hyperprotection of the perineum for 1.7 years, Walking, Rectal biofeedback, Stanford/Wise-Anderson Protocol, Conditioned deep relaxation practice, Men's Multi-Vitamin and an Extra B-complex pill, all seemed to help.
User avatar
scotsman
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 1415
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:26 pm
Location: Scotland, UK

Post by scotsman »

Thanks for the posts LT - I'll try this over the weekend.

Richard.
Not medical advice: Read my progress to date : Read about my W-A clinic visit

Age: 54 CPPS: 20 Yrs Recovery Status: 95% Symptoms: Pain around perineum Makes Worse: Tension, sitting Makes Better: Stretching, triggerpoint therapy, relaxation
HelpADude
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:05 am
Location: Northwestern USA

Post by HelpADude »

I started doing this when the OP first posted here a few weeks (?) back.

I have been symptom free for the last 1-2 weeks (i don't have my pain diary with me at the moment) . Before this I had an odd day here and there with no noticeable symptom.

Not saying this is THE thing but sure it didn't hurt. Taking no med except Omega 3 fish oil. Also still do broccoli broth once in a few day. I will also start my first Yoga class in 2 weeks.. yaaa!
Age: 38 Onset: April 2006 Current | Symptoms: Update, doctor found no hemorroid but pruritus ani. Was doing very good for a while but lately are having more flares. | Symptoms: raw, irrated feeling, spams in balls and bladder area. Drugs: Omega 3 oil only and just started Prosta-Q in Feb 2008, currently not taking Prosta-Q. Treatment: relaxation, AHIP stretches, the book EVERYDAY ZEN, Worsened by: Coffee (not 100% sure)
healthyforlife
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:40 pm

Post by healthyforlife »

The beginner pose actually looks similar to the Cobra stretch mentioned in AHIP. Man, I wonder how many can do the advance one.
Age: | Onset Age: | Symptoms: | Helped By: | Worsened By:
Gettingbetter
Intermediate Member
Intermediate Member
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 8:48 am
Location: Sweden

Post by Gettingbetter »

Is it bad to lean forward while doing this stretch?
Age:33 | Onset Age: 18 Old | Symptoms:Tight feeling in the pelvis and abdomen, burning in urethra and tip of penis,perineum, discharge from penis when it was the worst
Current symptoms: Mild discomfort in perineum, sometimes stomachaches
Helped By: Relaxation,breathing exercise, stretching,positive thinking, internal/external massage | Worsened By:Stress, too much sex/masturbating, Eating to large meals, Alcohol(day after)
Gettingbetter
Intermediate Member
Intermediate Member
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 8:48 am
Location: Sweden

Post by Gettingbetter »

Age:33 | Onset Age: 18 Old | Symptoms:Tight feeling in the pelvis and abdomen, burning in urethra and tip of penis,perineum, discharge from penis when it was the worst
Current symptoms: Mild discomfort in perineum, sometimes stomachaches
Helped By: Relaxation,breathing exercise, stretching,positive thinking, internal/external massage | Worsened By:Stress, too much sex/masturbating, Eating to large meals, Alcohol(day after)
User avatar
LightningTree
Sage
Sage
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 6:50 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Post by LightningTree »

That video is excellent.

The only modifications I make are I keep the front foot a little bit further forward (his is a little more under the hips, which is the classic position) when I get my back up as high as possible I really push it by putting my hands behind my head and making my muscles do all the work to keep it that way. That seems to have the desired effect.

I'm not sure if I look better naked :smile: , but I do certainly feel a whole lot better.

Really, you should do whatever works for you. But for me, the key is to stretch those two internal points up on near either side of the rectum at 11 and 1 oclock about 3 inches up. This is the key for me. To get those places to stretch I first get the foot positions in place, then get my hips level by leaning forward a little but, then arch the back. Pretty much the same as in the video, except I don't concentrate on first doing the lean forward pose as much as they do in Yoga. Really, I should do that. It seems they knew what they were doing several thousand years ago!

Yoga experts can do that stage where they bring the rear foot up, which I bet is exactly what I need, but I can't even come close to doing it. That's ok for now since really being rigid about the leg posture and arching the back is good enough for now.

I lean forward at first while I try to get my hips level and in alignment, before I try to make my back erect. I think that is important because otherwise I end up sliding into the stretch from one side and it doesn't have the desired effect, as the back is tilted towards the side form which I slid into the pose. Leaning forward is a good step (they do it in the pose) because it gets you to align your hips and get your back straight. Try to come straight back from leaning forward into the arched back. Its hard for me, I often lose my balance while doing that.

So leaning forward is ok as long as your eventual goal is to lean back.

Now, more generally, you should try whatever works for you. For me, the key is the arching the back part. Without that, the right 'spots' just don't get pulled on.

A key point is to keep the front foot well in front of the hips. Some people teach and show the pose with the front foot under the hips, but in my experience, you need the front foot more forward to help create the leverage (it puts stress on the knee so beware) to get the stretch in the magic spot I talked about. Notice he says in the video "without moving your feet" as he brings his back up.

This is incredibly important as the front foot will move to compensate for the leverage being placed in your pelvis. BUT YOU NEED THAT LEVERAGE INTACT. So don't let the front foot move. Be careful with your front knee.

I have done the cobra stretch since I started the SP 2.3 years ago. It is great and helps me. Unfortunately, the leg positions don't create the leveraging I need to really open up the pelvis and get at the muscle tissue up in there (maybe just in front of the sacrum?).

So, for me, the Cobra pose and the Pigeon Pose first stage are very different in that they have very different stretching effects on my body. Therefore, while they both involve arching the back, I would say that they are very different. Both are important, but this pigeon stretch is the breakthrough stretch for me.

This is not medical advice, and I am NOT a doctor of medicine or a related field.
* Age:33 Onset: February 2004.
* 99.9% IMPROVEMENT in 2.5 Years with the first year being the really hard part
* Current Symptoms: Mild irritation of perineal muscles on occasion. Relieved for days at a time by a specific stretch (see below).
* Initial Symptoms: Terrible penile, urethral, rectal, and perineal burning/aching with addition afferent sensations.
* Current Treatments: Deep stretching of the legs and pelvis. Most effective: Deep psoas and levitar ani stretch using the first phase of the "pigeon pose" from Yoga. When a deep pulling is felt in the middle of the pelvis next to the upper rectum, symptoms are completely alleviated for several days.
* Past Treatments Hyperprotection of the perineum for 1.7 years, Walking, Rectal biofeedback, Stanford/Wise-Anderson Protocol, Conditioned deep relaxation practice, Men's Multi-Vitamin and an Extra B-complex pill, all seemed to help.
User avatar
scotsman
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 1415
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:26 pm
Location: Scotland, UK

Post by scotsman »

Just had my first attempt and I can feel real pressure/resistance on the outside of my hips when trying this but my rectum doesn't feel like it's being stretched at all.

Did you find the same when you started?

Richard.
Not medical advice: Read my progress to date : Read about my W-A clinic visit

Age: 54 CPPS: 20 Yrs Recovery Status: 95% Symptoms: Pain around perineum Makes Worse: Tension, sitting Makes Better: Stretching, triggerpoint therapy, relaxation
User avatar
LightningTree
Sage
Sage
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 6:50 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Post by LightningTree »

Yeah, I tried it for a few days before I figured out what I needed to do.
If I don't do it a very particular way I don't feel anything up there and I have to try it again. If the legs aren't splayed out enough (front leg far enough out, back leg as far back as you can possibly get it, before you lean forward and then try to bring your back upright) then I don't get any sensation in there at all.

Sometimes it is hard to do and I have my wife hold my legs in the right position so that they don't move on me.

Again, this may relate to my particular problem but I suggest you keep trying. The best way to do that, I think, is just to make it a part of your 3 times a day stretching routine from the Stanford/Wise-Anderson Protocol.

Are you able to get your pelvis all the way down to the ground? I cannot. I am wondering how flexible you already are.

Maybe I'll take a camera and make a movie of me doing the stretch the way I do it, just in case that helps.

This is not medical advice, and I am NOT a doctor of medicine or a related field.
* Age:33 Onset: February 2004.
* 99.9% IMPROVEMENT in 2.5 Years with the first year being the really hard part
* Current Symptoms: Mild irritation of perineal muscles on occasion. Relieved for days at a time by a specific stretch (see below).
* Initial Symptoms: Terrible penile, urethral, rectal, and perineal burning/aching with addition afferent sensations.
* Current Treatments: Deep stretching of the legs and pelvis. Most effective: Deep psoas and levitar ani stretch using the first phase of the "pigeon pose" from Yoga. When a deep pulling is felt in the middle of the pelvis next to the upper rectum, symptoms are completely alleviated for several days.
* Past Treatments Hyperprotection of the perineum for 1.7 years, Walking, Rectal biofeedback, Stanford/Wise-Anderson Protocol, Conditioned deep relaxation practice, Men's Multi-Vitamin and an Extra B-complex pill, all seemed to help.
User avatar
scotsman
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 1415
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:26 pm
Location: Scotland, UK

Post by scotsman »

I'll certainly keep at it - and that video linked in the post further up has certainly helped.

I'm pretty flexible already (naturally so and did a lot of martial arts years ago plus I guess doing chronic prostatitis / chronic pelvic pain syndrome stretches over the past 3 years has helped too) but my pelvis is still a decent distance off the ground so I've got a lot to work on :smile:

Richard.
Not medical advice: Read my progress to date : Read about my W-A clinic visit

Age: 54 CPPS: 20 Yrs Recovery Status: 95% Symptoms: Pain around perineum Makes Worse: Tension, sitting Makes Better: Stretching, triggerpoint therapy, relaxation
User avatar
LightningTree
Sage
Sage
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 6:50 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Post by LightningTree »

Well, one thing to keep you encouraged is that I know that hip flexibility is not the key factor. That is, my twin and I both have this problem. But he can sit cross-legged and I cannot. So that element of flexibility isn't crucial. In other words, you could be very flexible or not flexible at all in the hips, and that doesn't seem to be critical to CPPS. What is critical, I think, is further up the pelvis along the spine.

In our case, I hypothesize that, for my brother and I, it is either the psoas muscles, or pelvic tilt with relation to the lower spine, or both. But it could be something totally different. But whatever it is, it is way up there and definitely not a surface condition of the pelvic floor. Its amazing how UNIRRITATED my pelvic floor is once I get those two points way up there inside to either itch (partial relief) or pull (total relief). On days when I don't do the stretch, the pelvic floor is irritated again.

This leads me to believe that the chronic irritation relates to the muscle,tissue,nerve positioning that my body stabilizes to over night.

Hopefully, some day I will be in a position to sonogram or xray myself and get measurements of bone and muscle positions before and after the stretch. I think that would pinpoint the physiological changes that take place, from which we could develop a theory about causation, and then see if it generalizes to more people in a study. Too bad its too late for medical school, I'm way too tired to get another degree.

This is not medical advice, and I am NOT a doctor of medicine or a related field.
* Age:33 Onset: February 2004.
* 99.9% IMPROVEMENT in 2.5 Years with the first year being the really hard part
* Current Symptoms: Mild irritation of perineal muscles on occasion. Relieved for days at a time by a specific stretch (see below).
* Initial Symptoms: Terrible penile, urethral, rectal, and perineal burning/aching with addition afferent sensations.
* Current Treatments: Deep stretching of the legs and pelvis. Most effective: Deep psoas and levitar ani stretch using the first phase of the "pigeon pose" from Yoga. When a deep pulling is felt in the middle of the pelvis next to the upper rectum, symptoms are completely alleviated for several days.
* Past Treatments Hyperprotection of the perineum for 1.7 years, Walking, Rectal biofeedback, Stanford/Wise-Anderson Protocol, Conditioned deep relaxation practice, Men's Multi-Vitamin and an Extra B-complex pill, all seemed to help.
User avatar
LightningTree
Sage
Sage
Posts: 623
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 6:50 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Post by LightningTree »

So to continue this log, I am now able to sit comfortably even on days when I have not done the stretch.

When I do do the stretch, I have a hard time feeling anything 'pull' anymore like I used to.

So whatever I straightened out up there, it was very helpful for me.

The lessons are
  • Experiment with many stretches and do them all: You need to experiment with trying different stretches to find ways to get at all of the possible muscle aches and pains.
  • Referred pelvic pain is real: In my case, points way up in the pelvis were referring to the pelvic floor.
Hope this information helps someone out there, too!

This is not medical advice, and I am NOT a doctor of medicine or a related field.
* Age:33 Onset: February 2004.
* 99.9% IMPROVEMENT in 2.5 Years with the first year being the really hard part
* Current Symptoms: Mild irritation of perineal muscles on occasion. Relieved for days at a time by a specific stretch (see below).
* Initial Symptoms: Terrible penile, urethral, rectal, and perineal burning/aching with addition afferent sensations.
* Current Treatments: Deep stretching of the legs and pelvis. Most effective: Deep psoas and levitar ani stretch using the first phase of the "pigeon pose" from Yoga. When a deep pulling is felt in the middle of the pelvis next to the upper rectum, symptoms are completely alleviated for several days.
* Past Treatments Hyperprotection of the perineum for 1.7 years, Walking, Rectal biofeedback, Stanford/Wise-Anderson Protocol, Conditioned deep relaxation practice, Men's Multi-Vitamin and an Extra B-complex pill, all seemed to help.