A case for drainage - The Sequel (Round 2)

[nickjr4]

Ok I am starting a new post because I really only have one simple question that I don't think has been addressed in all the replies to "A case for drainage".

I would still like to hear some specific pathological reason that refutes the possibility that an infection is sealed inside the acini, that a period of massages might release it, and that subsequent cultures might show this bacteria, with appropriate treatment to follow.

And hopefully the refutation would be more than just "well that's not the case for the majority of men". I am not unsympathetic to the majority of men, but, selfishly, I am a bit more interested in my own condition right now.

Nick

[webslave]

I would still like to hear some specific pathological reason that refutes the possibility that an infection is sealed inside the acini, that a period of massages might release it, and that subsequent cultures might show this bacteria, with appropriate treatment to follow.

In a few words: extensive PCR studies refute this scenario.

[james-d]

I feel your pain about wanting absolute answers. There are none in this condition - just theories, opinions, and anecdotal evidance and small scale trials. Hopefully, soon, there will be scientific evidence for us all about what to do!

[TK]

I would still like to hear some specific pathological reason that refutes the possibility that an infection is sealed inside the acini, that a period of massages might release it, and that subsequent cultures might show this bacteria, with appropriate treatment to follow.

Nickjr4,

No one can absolutely PROVE that it's not possible.

Some questions to ask yourself.

Are you or anyone else aware of Documented cases of chronic bacterial prostatitis which were NOT accompanied by Urinary Tract Infections?

If an infection was at the center of your condition, how do you account for the fact that this hypothetical infection has "come and gone" over the years (as described in your earlier posts). What was suppressing it during the quiescent periods?

Re calcifications: everyone has them. According to my urologist, a sonogram of my prostate showed a relatively high level of calcifications

Re prostate massage: my own personal experience suggests that--properly done (at judicious intervals) -- this MAY help to force out "chemoattractants" -- debris and by-products of inflammation that stoke the otherwise self-perpetuating cycle of inflammation.

I believe that one of the things that you are struggling with is the possibility that you are not getting straight answers here because of kneejerk ideological hostility to the "infection theory". Perhaps reviewing this thread will help ease this concern.

If it seems like you have "touched a nerve", nick, it's because -- beyond the fact that the "Manilla Protocol" is an outright fraud -- so many of us spent so many years knocking our heads against the phantom bacterial infection because so much of the mainstream literature stated or implied that that was the root of the problem.

(Few Doctors were inclined to say -- "well, we're gonna give you these antibiotics because that seems to work sometimes, but the truth is we have no idea as to why this works.)

So now we see you struggling with exactly the same question -- in the absence of ANY indication of infection.

And we know for a certainty Nick that muscle spasms of the pelvic floor DEFINITELY can cause this condition. (By the way, Nick, you might think that you would definitely be aware of such a muscle spasm. WRONG!!!)

So what we see is a guy chasing a far far far outside possibility while (seemingly) ignoring the much more likely scenario.

So speculate all you like about phantom infections sequestered inside the acini.
But if you do not look into muscle spasm, (an entire section of this forum - check it out!!!) then you are depriving yourself of an opportunity to get well. And once you start to understand what's happening in broad neurological terms, your symptoms will make a lot more sense.

[nickjr4]

No one can absolutely PROVE that it's not possible.

Sure,I know that. I was just looking for deductive rather than inductive reasons.

Are you aware of cases of chronic bacterial prostatitis NOT accompanied by Urinary Tract Infections?

I am not.

If an infection was your condition, how do you account for the fact that it has "come and gone". What was suppressing it during the quiescent periods?

I used to get a sinus infection every winter. I didn't presume that it was suppressed the rest of the year, just gone. True, the thickened semen has been with me for 10 years, but except for a brief period 5 years ago there was no discomfort involved.

Re calcifications: According to my urologist, my prostate showed a high level of calcifications

And is your semen unusually thick and of lower volume?

Prostate massage MAY help to force out debris and by-products of inflammation that stoke the cycle of inflammation.

Okay, that's good to know.

I believe that you think you are not getting straight answers here because of kneejerk hostility to the "infection theory".

I think there is kneejerk hostility, perhaps justified but there nonetheless.

If you have "touched a nerve", it's because of so many years knocking our heads against the phantom bacterial infection.

I gathered that.

Few Doctors were inclined to say -- "well, we're gonna give you these antibiotics because that seems to work sometimes, but the truth is we have no idea as to why this works.

My most recent urologist said something close to that.

So we see a guy chasing a far outside possibility while ignoring the more likely scenario.

Just trying to be thorough. Definitely not ignoring the likely.

So speculate about infections, but if you do not look into muscle spasm, then you are depriving yourself of an opportunity to get well.

Will definitely do that.

Thanks TK, best answer yet.

[TK]

Nickjr4 wrote:
And is your semen unusually thick and of lower volume?

Ten months ago, my semen was thicker and of a more yellowish coloration. Both of these symptoms have vanished now.

[Astra457]

I will eventually post a longer, more in depth post, later, but I have a story that I feel compelled to share.

1st, I am 21, and I started having problems before I was sexually active. Well, except for oral sex when I was in high school, but there was a 3 year abstinence period between that and when I started experiencing "symptoms." Also, I have never been diagnosed with an STD of any kind, or any kind of urinary tract infection, or bladder infection, or any kind of infection of my urinary system. I've had many urinalysis tests done and never have I had any wbc's or red blood cells...

Basically, I had the following symptoms:
1. Pain in testicles (this is the first symptom I had)
2. Pain in groin, generally lower groin/pubic area
3. Frequent urination and hesitation on urination. (which I've had for the longest time, unless I'm really comfy. I've always been sheepish in public rest areas)
4. Erection problems at the height of my anxiety

Now, I just wanted to post this message in this forum because I think, Nick, that you are going down the same path I was. When this whole thing started, I was first diagnosed with epididymitis, but then the horrible uro I first had denied that he ever dx'd me with that and said it was prostatitis. He had no real reason to dx me with that, which I understand now. However, at the time I was more scared of testicular cancer. I fell into a state of anxiety unlike I've ever known. I was constantly worrying about my condition. The pain got horribly unbearable, to the point where I was missing work.

Eventually I went to see a different uro, who found out I had epididymal cysts. That, he theorizes, was the origin of my pain, since I generally wore boxers. Now, I'm not saying cysts have anything to do with you. However, they started my anxiety, which I let get out of control. I got cancer out of my mind and that helped. I now had to worry about this horrible uncurable disease that I was first dx'd with: prostatitis. Well, the uro did a prostate exam, which my first one never did, and he said I was fine. He suggested that most of my symptoms were probably direct results of my acute anxiety.

About a month or two ago I saw him again and had him check my prostatic fluid for white blood cells, to see if there was any inflammation at all. Since all these infection based ideas are constantly refering to WBCs in the prostatic fluid, I figured this would be a good test to see if I had this problem, certainly if I had a bacterial infection. The test turned up that I had no white blood cells in my prostatic fluid, yet I still had all these symptoms.

I still fight with anxiety and I still stress out. However, the only symptom I wrestle with is frequent urination, now. The pain has all but dissapeared and I can take some ultram when the cyst acts up and that takes care of it completely. When I get really anxious/stressed out, I have bad frequency problems. However, I went to a Renaissance Festival the other day and only used the bathroom 2 or three times in an 8 hour period, despite the fact that I drank 6 beers and a mead! Also, I've never had frequent night time urination, and if I do have to pee at night, it's only once.

So, anyway, I thought I'd share my story. I personally think that the "manila protocol" is a way to take advantage of people going through a horribly difficult issue. Scaring people further and taking advantage of them is the last thing they need. I know that for me, fear and anxiety was my biggest enemy. I'm still fighting to conquer it completely, but I am getting better and better.

Also, to let you know, relaxation techniques do help me. Now that I've chilled out significantly, erectile issues have gone away, and for someone my age that's a big deal.

In my personal experience, the most important thing is to be calm, still have fun, don't let this crap eat you up, and enjoy life! That's easier said than done, perhaps, but the last thing you should be doing is worrying...

Like I said, I'll post my full story eventually. It's just so long that it's a big exhausting.

Oh, and, just as a disclaimer, I'm not a doctor. This is MY personal experience and may not have any similarities to your case. I'm just sharing my story...