Self massage dangerous?

[CMT23]

New to this board. Will post my long story soon. I have recently tried self internal massage with a prostate massage tool. By pressing on the area front left and right and on my prostate, I can exactly replicate my symptoms. My question is, how do I know that I am not simply making things worse? Maybe I am pressing on nerves or on the prostate in a manner that is causing damage? I did it with my finger a few days ago and afterwards my symptoms seemed to quiet. I did it with the prostate massager today, quite a bit harder and within minutes my symptoms felt 20 times worse. A few hours later they seem to be calming down a bit but still not down to where they were before the massage. So the short of it, how do I know I am pressing on trigger points and not sensitive tissue or the prostate itself? What does it mean to you that I can duplicate my symptoms exactly by pressing on the area to the front left and right of the prostate and by pressing on the prostate itself? (over the past 14 years all known medical conditions have been ruled out) thanks for any insight!

[webslave]

Once you start pushing trigger points, it can cause a flare. This has to be worked through to get to the other side where things start getting better. Do not push hard at exactly 12o'clock, in other words directly on the prostate. Use your finger to make sure you know where the prostate is. You can usually feel the wand slip off it to the one side or other.

The levator ani insertions to the side and somewhat behind the prostate are well known problem areas, often linked to penis tip pain.

[CMT23]

Thanks for this. While pressing at 12 o clock does replicate my symptoms, pressing to the left and right of 12 o clock also does. I pressed in these areas for about 1 minute each 3 times. As long as you don't press exactly at 12 oclock, is there any possibility of doing damage? ( of course I don't press to the point of pain, but just to the point where I feel my exact symptoms exaggerated )

Should I take this as a good sign that I can so easily duplicate my symptoms by pressing at 10 and 2 o clock? A good sign to ms is that I am on the right track! After endless attempts at various treatments, this is the only thing that makes sense anymore. All of my external muscles that connect to the pelvic floor are very tight and I have begun stretching them along with daily relaxation.

I was excited to try the internal self physical therapy, but now a little apprehensive. My personality is predisposed to worry and think worst case scenario so I have now already read about all the undesirable things that can happen as the result of a overly rough prostate massage.

In this case, all I can do is wait and hope the symptoms subside. Assuming they do, how many times a week is it recommended that one do the internal work?

Thank you much for any answers. My symptoms were an 8 a week ago, a 2 last night and back up to a 7 or 8 now. I'm determined to heal myself and I just hope that I am on the right track.

[webslave]

Thanks for this. While pressing at 12 o clock does replicate my symptoms, pressing to the left and right of 12 o clock also does. I pressed in these areas for about 1 minute each 3 times. As long as you don't press exactly at 12 oclock, is there any possibility of doing damage? ( of course I don't press to the point of pain, but just to the point where I feel my exact symptoms exaggerated )

If you insert an item into your rectum and exert force through that item into the internal structures of the pelvis, there is always a possibility of doing damage. It's very rare, but you can damage the membranous urethra, or you could perforate the bowel. Proceed with caution and try to get a "feel" for where the prostate is, and avoid it. And when exerting force, be careful.

Should I take this as a good sign that I can so easily duplicate my symptoms by pressing at 10 and 2 o clock?

Yes, I'd say so.

In this case, all I can do is wait and hope the symptoms subside. Assuming they do, how many times a week is it recommended that one do the internal work?

Daily, imo. In fact, when I have trigger points in my shoulders from working on this damned computer, I treat myself several times a day.

[CMT23]

Thank you for your responses. It took 15mg of valium to let me rest and sleep. Usually 5mg is enough and even then, it's usually only needed once a week or so. Slept the whole night and this morning feel like a 5 or so, so that is better.

What I am very curious to know is in a 'normal' person, would pressing at 10 and 2 o clock elicit this same sensation in the tip of the penis? If so, then I'm not sure where that leaves me. If not, then it would seem that I am on to something.

Anyway, after the treatment I could feel my whole pelvis was much more relaxed, but my symptoms were much worse. What is the logic behind this? For example, when my back is sore and I get a massage, I feel much better afterwards. Why should massaging trigger points and stretching the pelvis first result in my symptoms feeling worse? If the tension is causing my discomfort, wouldn't it make more sense if the internal massage immediately made me feel better just like a massage on any other part of the body?

[webslave]

That's just the way trigger points are; you can confirm it in any book on the topic. Overtreatment and undertreatment tends to irritate trigger points. Rubbing or stretching a muscle possessing a trigger point without releasing the trigger point first can actually make it worse.

[Jay]

Ordinarily, someone who does not have chronic prostatitis / chronic pelvic pain syndrome will feel little more than uncomfortable pressure during a rectal exam. Pressure to the prostate often creates something like a tingling at the tip of the penis, or the feeling that you have to urinate. For people who do have typical pelvic floor CPPS, it's obviously a more painful affair.

Be very conservative when you are doing internal work. I've been doing it for years now and am still here, but I had the benefit of a professional's guidance. As Webslave says, get a feel for the geography. When you are working on the tight muscle and trigger points, you really do not have to be forceful to produce the necessary amount of pressure. Just a little bit held for 30 seconds or so per location goes a long way for me.

[CMT23]

Thanks for the info Jay. 36 hours later and it still feels flared up since doing the self massage. When pressing at 10 and 2 o clock, I feel an intense urgency or feeling of a full bladder in the tip of the penis. It's my exact symptoms, but simply magnified. I hope that means that by working these points, I will get some relief.

I actually saw Tim Sawyer many years ago and did some of the internal work with him. But it was not more than 10 sessions and I did not do any of the external stretching and relaxation that he and David Wise said were necessary. (Tim told me I needed to do certain stretches many times per day as some areas were extremely tight).

Hard to explain why I didn't follow up properly, but at that time I had finally found that Valium and hot baths gave me great relief and maybe knowing that reduced my level of worry about this and perhaps my level of motivation to get over it. Also, I think in the back of my head, I was thinking 'after all these years, this (muscle tension theory) is all that is left and if this doesn't do it, then where do I stand?" At least I could "know" in the back of my head that there was something out there that may bring relief. And this "knowing", in some kind of twisted way, made me feel better about things.

After a few recent flare ups, I am now very motivated to get over this and I just hope that I am finally on the right track. Along with the internal points I mention, I have noticed myself clenching my pelvic floor when I get anxious or nervous and all of the muscles connected to the pelvic floor are very tight. So doing stretching, relaxation, and trying to consciously check that my pelvic floor muscles are relaxed throughout the day. Also trying Neurontin and Elavil. Tried each on their own a long time ago, but not together and perhaps not at the correct dosage.

[CMT23]

I had another go gently with my finger and I think this 10 and 2 o'clock that I have referred to may just be the left and right side of my prostate. Does anyone else out there have symptoms that are duplicated by pressing on the prostate? Could my pelvic floor muscles be so tight that the prostate has been squeezed or pushed on and thus irritated? Every standard test regarding my prostate has come back normal...

[webslave]

Your prostate is not that large (10-2). Also, when you press on the prostate you are simultaneously pressing on the muscle insertions behind the gland, so that may be where symptoms are coming from. And remember that the prostatic epithelium can and does get inflamed in CPPS, so a tender prostate is not unusual. See pelvic myoneuropathy link in my sig for why.

[CMT23]

It could be 11 and 1. It's hard to tell, but the tissue feels different from the rest of the sides and back so I am assuming it is the prostate. If the problem is the muscles behind the prostate, how can this be addressed since you are not supposed to press hard on the prostate itself?

Five days ago after beginning daily stretching and relaxation and after a couple of goes at internal work with my finger (which isn't very long), and after consciously keeping my pelvic floor relaxed throughout the day, I was feeling great. I had many hours sitting still at dinner where I felt like a 1 or 2 out of 10 on the discomfort scale.

A couple days later I had a coffee, went home and tried the self massage with more pressure and with a wand. Within minutes it flared up big time. Extreme discomfort. The same thing has happened again today, even though i was very gentle and took care not to press with much force at all on the prostate. So now I don't know if I am simply damaging something inside of me or hitting points that need to be hit and getting the flare up reaction that is to be expected in the beginning.

It's all beyond frustrating. There is no one in this country who I am aware of (yet) who does the internal work, so it's not as simple as stopping in for an appointment and getting a professional opinion. I am considering another visit to the Urologist here to try and rule out all the normal afflictions again. (Maybe there is some kind of infection or problem with the bladder neck or urethra or something after all) I checked my email and saw communication with him after appointments in 2001 and 2002. I know people have been dealing with similar symptoms for far longer, but it is still rather depressing to think that after 9 years, this is still going on and can still flare up to the point where I have to knock myself our with valium to get through the night.

Not feeling sorry for myself. Just telling it like it is. Perhaps I will need to make a trip back to America to meet with the specialists there, but money is an issue so we will see.

Really, all I want to know is that I am following a course of action that will result in return to normalcy. With this muscle tension theory, I think it fits my symptoms and personality traits, but these huge flare ups after gently pressing on the prostate have me wondering, what next?

[webslave]

As I said, pressing trigger points in the wrong way (too much or not enough), can make them worse. Read the books by Wise, Travell and Davies:
Amazon

Infection? After 9 years, and which gets worse when manipulated? No way.

[CMT23]

Well it's been 14 years. And I haven't mentioned in this thread that after the first couple months of being symptomatic, I got the basic tests including a cystoscopy, was told that nothing was wrong and if I remember correctly, given some basic antidepressant which I might have taken for a few weeks. Within a few weeks, I went to Hawaii for the Summer and my symptoms disappeared completely. Within a few months of returning to home and school, the symptoms came back and have been with me ever since.

So it would have to be an infection that can't exist in Hawaii LOL

I also did a month in Manila with Dr. Feliciano. Not sure if he is still around. His theory was that this is all caused by some strange infection. He apparently found things, gave me all kinds of antibiotics, but with no results. Since this all started before I began having sex, it would have to be a very special kind of bacteria/virus.

I guess I will lay off any internal work until I read the books you mentioned. I was under the impression that simply applying pressure on spots that duplicated my symptoms, would be of some value.

Thanks again.

[webslave]

Feliciano is an out-and-out scammer, in my opinion. We have a thread on him and his buddy, Dr Polacheck:
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=262

[borat1]

CMT23,

I'm in the same basket as you.... I started having symptoms around a year and a half ago. I was able to go to a great PT for internal and external work and had almost put this behind me. I have since moved and no longer have a local PT to go to. I had a flare up that consisted of a burning/sensitive penis tip and hemorrhoid like symptoms. I finally decided to try some self internal work. I started with my thumb and worked the sides internally (where she used to find most of the tight spots). I didn't have much there, but when I worked the area from the perineum to the prostate (mainly near the prostate) it was like ringing a buzzor for my tip of the urethra burning symptoms!

I worked it gently for a while, probably working the prostate a little too (didn't realize that was bad). The symptoms went away for a few hours and are less, but still there.

I'm wondering if I should continue with this or what.

The PT work I had done before consisted of my PT finding knots or tight string like areas and applying pressure. I never felt the tip pressure point with those, but felt it in the bottom of my feet. What I did today felt like I hit the bee's nest.

I have the "A Headache in the Pelvis" book, but need more help with this.

Webslave, any thoughts?

Thanks so much, and I hope we both find a cure.

Cheers,

Borat.