Self massage dangerous?

[webslave]

I'd say continue, but learn where your prostate is and what it feels like. It's not that hard to find.

[borat1]

Thanks for the reply.

Today things have settled down. I ordered my free bottle of Quercetin on your the above recommendation, but I'm curious... how do pills help relax the pelvic floor? Or is it they keep the prostate from being inflamed?

[webslave]

The any accredited quercetin product does not affect the muscles. It works by de-inflaming the prostatic epithelial tissues, allowing sequestered (trapped), inspissated, and irritating secretions to escape. It is a symptomatic treatment, but helps by reducing noxious neurological feedback from the pelvis.

[DMcU]

Would it be possible to get the any accredited quercetin product from Ireland?

It would be great if I could e-mail them, for example.

[samgg10]

Thought I'd share. I've spoken to Tim about this exact worry, that pressing on the prostate might be undesirable/dangerous/etc. His response was don't worry. If you feel referred pain you're in a productive area.

IMO It's hard to smash the prostate anyway because of the shape. You're bound to end up on the connecting muscles, where you want to be. You're also bound to cause initial flares in these spots, because they're your hardest-to-treat trigger points and surely extra-sensitive.

A key I've found is low pressure. Start slow, hold steady when you feel the symptom's onset; next relax; and quit when it fades away.

Also IMO nobody "needs" Quercetin. You might like the ingredients, specifically quercetin, but you can find these elsewhere, online, and reputably, for non-exorbitant prices. Google "quercetin bromelain" for instance. Neither is a miracle trick, nor is anything you can dig up online after anxious hours of searching. Trust in the protocol, if you can, and the popular recommendations of successful members.

[CMT23]

Thought I'd share. I've spoken to Tim about this exact worry, that pressing on the prostate might be undesirable/dangerous/etc. His response was don't worry. If you feel referred pain you're in a productive area.

IMO It's hard to smash the prostate anyway because of the shape. You're bound to end up on the connecting muscles, where you want to be. You're also bound to cause initial flares in these spots, because they're your hardest-to-treat trigger points and surely extra-sensitive.

A key I've found is low pressure. Start slow, hold steady when you feel the symptom's onset; next relax; and quit when it fades away.

Also IMO nobody "needs" Quercetin. You might like the ingredients, specifically quercetin, but you can find these elsewhere, online, and reputably, for non-exorbitant prices. Google "quercetin bromelain" for instance. Neither is a miracle trick, nor is anything you can dig up online after anxious hours of searching. Trust in the protocol, if you can, and the popular recommendations of successful members.

Well pressing on the prostate exactly duplicates my symptoms and always has. When this first started 14 years ago the doctors would of course start with a check of the prostate and as they did this I would tell them 'that's it, that's what I feel all the time", but they didn't find that significant at all. I can also duplicate my symptoms by pressing at 3 and 9 o clock.

I have done the internal work a few times, pressing lightly and relaxing. But even if I just do 10-15 seconds, it flares up big time each time and lasts for 3 or 4 days. I mean 3 or 4 days where I go from a general discomfort to extreme discomfort, having to knock myself out with Xanax just to make it through. I have the tools I need to do the internal work now, but I am wondering how many times will I have to put up with 3 day flare ups? Would I benefit from first tackling the external muscles and then going for the internal ones? I just don't know how many flare ups I can handle.

[webslave]

I can tell you that I get TrPts in my shoulders from computer work, and getting rid of them with the Theracane is painful. The first few "goes" on the TrPts leaves me more uncomfortable than before I started. I expect this is the same for any TrPt, incl those in the pelvis.

So if you "goose" your pelvic TrPts and then back off for a few days, it's almost a form of masochism. It would be for me with my shoulders. Once I start treating the shoulder pain and hitting those agonising knots in the muscles, I have to keep going every few hours, pressing in hard enough until I feel the knot suddenly give way and relax. I press firmly and hold for up to a minute, but I also sometimes "wiggle" the Theracane like a vibrator on the area. Hurts so good.

[CMT23]

I can handle the pain if I know I am doing the right thing and ultimately I will get over this. But I am still confused about the prostate area. samgg10 said he spoke with Tim who said any area that refers pain is productive. So does this mean if I use a prostate massager and simply let it press on the prostate for 30 seconds or so (which exactly duplicates my symptoms) that I am helping to release trigger points/loosen adjacent muscle? The book A Headache in the Pelvis seems to offer very specific instructions about the prostate saying something like ''only massage from outside to in and from top to bottom' if I recall correctly.

So will I benefit from simply pressing on the prostate with a prostate massager? Man oh man, I wish these muscles were pretty much anywhere else on my body!

[webslave]

Come in on the prostate from the side so that you get to the levator ani muscles behind it, and don't press the prostate itself.

[CMT23]

I tried this with a tool at an angle where I am sure that I am not touching my prostate. About 4 inches in on each side I can EXACTLY duplicate my symptoms. As I turn the tool towards my prostate, the sensation increases. It's very difficult to tell when I have reached the prostate itself. I'm sure that it is being touched though as I can see a small amount of fluid come out of my penis.

Is it okay that the prostate is being touched? With self massage it seems almost impossible to massage just to the left or right of the prostate without also pressing on it.

After I duplicate my symptoms and hold pressure for a minute or so, I remove the tool and lie down. Immediately the severity of my symptoms increase. I hope and pray that as time goes by this will not be the case or at the least, if symptoms do flare up, it will only last a few hours rather than days as has been the case so far.

[samgg10]

So does this mean if I use a prostate massager and simply let it press on the prostate for 30 seconds or so (which exactly duplicates my symptoms) that I am helping to release trigger points/loosen adjacent muscle? The book A Headache in the Pelvis seems to offer very specific instructions about the prostate saying something like ''only massage from outside to in and from top to bottom' if I recall correctly.

I guess the answer is "maybe." Tim's point is you aren't going to hurt yourself by attempting non-reckless self-treatment, e.g. the prostate isn't so fragile that it's dangerous to touch, press, etc. You can treat it, fine. But remember that the prostate isn't precisely where you want to be; it's just close. The referred pain you feel probably relates to this closeness. Personally I'd follow the HITP advice as nearly as possible (hitting it on either side, where there's trigger-point muscle tissue).

Have to add that, for me, physical therapy isn't the most amazing tool in the world. There are other ways to lengthen and loosen muscles, TPs or not; I mean the mental side of this: relaxation therapy. You can do paradoxical relaxation, you can do yoga, qigong, massage, whatever.

But it's best to use both. A lot of times, especially early on, you'll want to do the mental followed immediately by the physical (or vice versa) in a single session. Doing relaxation first helps prep your muscles for the 'trauma' of therapy. Doing it second is apparently useful too, though I much prefer the hot tub.

If you speak with Dr Wise on this, or go to his clinic, he'll describe his basic protocol in three interchangeable parts: a) relaxation, b) physical therapy (external + internal), c) hot baths. That's the thrust of it. I know it's his opinion that you need the physical therapy in order to heal from CPPS, which I'd keep in mind before ditching it or anything. Still, we're learning from others' success stories (including the book Teach Us to Sit Still) that this is maybe a dubious claim. So don't despair if the PT is hurting you, especially right now. There are other ways you can start healing immediately.

[CMT23]

Thanks samgg10. The thing that encourages me about the PT is that it makes it obvious that there is a direct connection between the muscles I am pressing on and my symptoms. Just that alone provides some motivation and allows me to relax somewhat. For years and years I had no idea what could be behind my pain and no doctor was of any help. The flare ups that last a day or days are much, much more difficult to deal with. And in the back of my head there is still doubt as to whether the flare up was the result of me pressing properly or the result of some clumsiness on my behalf. I think i would deal more easily if the PT had been done by a professional who could assure me that he was pressing in all the right places.

In 2002 I was lucky enough to see Dr. Wise and have a number of appointments with Tim. The problem was that at the time I wasn't in enough pain and didn't follow the protocol at all. Now I am ready, but I am far away so for now it will be up to me to get started on my own.

While it is obvious that the pelvic muscles are involved, I have studied Clair Davies book closely and in my case it is also clear that the illiopsoas and also the muscles in the hips are a major culprit. I have many trigger points here and of course all these muscles are in some way connected to the pelvic floor muscles. When I think back, at the time that my symptoms started, I had a few episodes of leaning over, standing up, and then having my back lock into place. I was like that for days at a time in some cases (and I was 17!). So it is clear that a muscular problem was at play.

Do you mean that you do the PT followed by a hot bath? Thanks for the tip about the book. I will check it out. A few months after my symptoms started, I had had a couple prostate exams and a cystoscopy and was told nothing was wrong. I don't remember the exact moment, but a couple weeks later I went to Hawaii for the Summer. I remember being very happy to be there and I also remember doing a lot of lying in the sun and snorkeling (where you are of course completely relaxed floating in the water). Anyway, during that entire time I had no symptoms at all. But within a few months of returning home, the symptoms returned and have been with me since even though I have been in many relaxing situations since that time. I think at the time I went to Hawaii I was right on the edge and the extra relaxation I got there brought me back from the brink so to speak.

Anyway, thanks again. I'll keep everyone updated.

[samgg10]

I don't remember the exact moment, but a couple weeks later I went to Hawaii for the Summer. I remember being very happy to be there and I also remember doing a lot of lying in the sun and snorkeling (where you are of course completely relaxed floating in the water). Anyway, during that entire time I had no symptoms at all. But within a few months of returning home, the symptoms returned and have been with me since even though I have been in many relaxing situations since that time.

That's the condition, sure. Stress is a big deal; and when you get a bit better your body will prove it to you. For me, now, somebody who never considered stress/mental-health even remotely an issue, I'm far enough along basically to observe how tiny trigger situations directly exacerbate symptoms. Maybe I'm at a ballgame and feeling great, nearly pain-free, no issues being a boisterous fan, etc. Then it's time to leave and there's that crush of exiting people. Immediately my symptoms come back. I'll contemplate sneaking off to a restroom; I'll want to be quiet, irritable. But that used to be how all of life went. Now it's only pieces. Of course the triggers are mostly more subtle than this, but if you believe in them you can always find them.

Bath after PT is what I prefer. A kind of reward.

Also remember, this isn't really a muscular problem; it's a body problem, where your unconscious mind is involved in setting your level of tension. The root of your pain is the mind. (Muscles being the nodes of pain, and nerves the pathways). PT hits the muscles, drugs hit the nerves, but relaxation (etc.) changes everything.

Hope it works out for you.