Neue01's Case

[neue01]

Point well taken. I actually do stretches often and yoga from time to time. I don't tend to see as much effect from this though. Massage has been the single biggest method bringing on the most change.

[ajama484]

hey neue whats the device you use for internal treatment. You said your Trps were 6 inches in. What can i use to go in that far. Plus, did this help with ejaculation? I'm have a difficult time ejaculating as if the muscles deep in my rectum are constricted and preventing proper contractions during ejaculation. Did using a device that far in help?

[neue01]

I've used the slender 7 but ended up improvising my own wand and that's what's worked the best. In truth I think any of the tools and wands that get recommend on the forum will work. You just have to try and see what works best for you.

[ajama484]

and what position do you sit/stand in to hit those spots

[neue01]

Lay on your back legs elevated. Work the tool back slowly until you hit what feels like a dead end usually with associated sensation of your symptom. This is a tight spot. Hold some amount of pressure here until the area releases and allows the tool past. You get the hang of it and find out what works best for you.

[ajama484]

I finally got the the slender 7 and I tried hitting the areas neue mentioned. All I can say is that I've never experienced pain like this in my entire life. Its like the cramping sensation I get in my rectum times a thousand. Moreover I get a burning cramping feeling on my abdomen when I reach 5 inches in. The weird thing is I can't go past 6 inches its like its blocked or obstructed and when I get there the pain is at its worst. The obstructed portion feels like an open wound when I try to push up against it gently. Is this normal neue?

[neue01]

You've hit your key trouble spots. This is exactly what I'm talking about the very same thing happens to me. I have almost worked these areas out entirely and this is the road to a complete cure I'm almost positive. I think the reason most men linger with this condition only feeling 75% or 80% better while still getting flare ups is because they have not gone deep enough in exactly the manner I'm talking about.

Yes the pain is intense and the first time you hit these areas they are so sore they will bring tears to your eyes. You have to build up to the point where you can hold the tool there long enough to get the group of muscles to release. You will then be able to move the tool further back. It took me 2 weeks at first to be able to move past the first area of muscle congestion.

There are a few key tips i've learned after a year and a half of exploring and experimenting with what I'll call "deep rectal release". I think that the rectal cavity consists of 3 major areas that work in conjunction with each other. The first and most accessible is your pelvic floor. This is the most accessible and easiest area to work out. Just releasing this area alone can bring on huge relief. This is the area that gets the most attention from all the literature and physical therapists. This makes sense because it's the easiest to access and work so it gets a lot of attention. The thing is there are 2 deeper areas that in my opinion are completely ignored.

The second area starts at about 7 or 8 inches in and goes to about 10 or 11 inches. This area has a ton of effect on those really deep urinary symptoms and sensations that manifest all the way up to pain in the tip of the penis. This is a crucial area to hit as well and release here is even more profound.

The last area is really far back starting at 10 inches and going to 14 inches or so. This area is the sensation to go number 2 largely and when released completes the chain. These muscle groups all work in conjunction with each other in rhythmic waves that bring control and sensation to everything from urination, orgasm and deification. I have see PROFOUND effects from releasing all three of these areas in concert. I have also experienced profound dismay when I have set them off or mis-released any one of them. This is not always easy but the release makes it all worth it.

So to answer your question further. The method is simple. Use a slender, slightly flexible, rounded tool that can travel 14 inches into the rectal cavity. I know it sounds intense but it is easy to get the hang of. You normally can slide this tool back very slowly the entire length of your rectal cavity hitting all three areas. It takes me 15-30 minutes to just run once through all three groups. I have noticed if I try run this entire process to fast or more then once or twice I tend to experience a flare up and less of a release. I suggest just slowly running through this deep rectal release process once every morning and allow the area to rest for the reminder of the day. This has been a huge realization for me and will save you lots of agony by trying to release it all in one sensation by doing this multiple times. Once a day is all you need to do to start seeing huge change in your symptoms.

[we.the.hulk]

Hi all.

Just reading through some old posts. Neue01 has an interesting, well documented history of internal work here (thanks neue!) he speaks about going in up to 14 inches. Some serious exploratory work. Well done. Just curious if anyone else has worked this high up into the rectum. No PT I've spoken with recommends this, and in fact discourages going too deep (worries of damaging the bladder etc..) I've been in about 7 in. And started irritating my bladder.
Thoughts?

[neue01]

Progress to date:

I wanted to jump on the forum again quickly and discuss my progress so far. I want everyone to know I have had a really bad case with this condition in truth and it's been a long time on the road to recovery. About 3 years or so to be exact. For most of that time I have obsessed over my internal muscles at the exclusion of external muscles. BIts and parts of my therapy have been with professionals but the majority of it was done by myself. I have to say that if you can afford it going through it with a professional is much better. Often I felt like I was alone out in the woods by going the solo route. That can be tough on your psyche. Anyway, enough talk about that.

I wanted to let some of you know that my progress has been very good. I largely deal with no pain unless I have flared myself up. When I have gone through flare ups I have stirred up all manner of symptoms. Sometimes symptoms I have never had before. This will tell you how important the muscles are to this condition. In the end when I have everything massaged out I could go for weeks feeling almost through the woods. No pain whatsoever and a decent amount of functionality.

The problem is no matter how well I thought I had gotten my internal muscles resolved I always struggled with issues around erections. I know a ton of you have dealt with the same frustrations. Things just weren't 100%. They were okay and some days where better then others but I still just couldn't totally figure it out. Out of frustration I went to see a new physical therapist a few weeks back, here in SF. It was a female PT but I thought "screw it, I just need to switch things up". She actually spent most of her time externally and hit a large group of muscles running in the pubic area and deep along the left side extending down my leg. This was extremely uncomfortable but it was not that jumping sort of pain you get with internal muscles. She showed me how to work the area and I left her office just feeling good having talked to someone about this stuff again. Over the next few days Things began to change. I hit some of the most relief I have felt in a long time working this area out. I'm still not 100% through the area because TPs continue to present themselves in this region. In truth it all still is a little cottage cheese like but it is much softer then it was when things started. I also can't begin to tell you how much this area has effected my erections. It has been amazing. I have had a return of sensations and feelings that I totally forgot I had by this point. Urinating and going number 2 finally feel resolved and they are starting to function as I remember them before this started. If these sorts of symptoms are an issue for any of you I advise you to start working on this area of your external muscles and see if you have similar results.

Keep up the effort everyone. In the words of the old british war posters "keep calm and carry on". ;)

[DMcU]

Thanks for going online and telling us this story, I think any positive story like yours is so compelling because it proves we are on the right track. I physically makes me feel better hearing your story!

I too am still running into new sore spots lately and I feel I can actually breathe deeper and easier after treating them. After I read about you finding some TrPts to the left of your groin I checked that area myself and to my surprise I have a bundle of sore spots here too! That's how helpful posts like this are!

Good luck!

[neue01]

Hey there people. I thought I'd take a minute to check in and talk through my progress and the methods I used to get through the nightmare of this condition. We've all obviously suffered to varying degrees with this condition and everyone's variation is unique on some level. I suffered for a long time and my condition was very bad before I figured out what I needed to do to correct it. That should give some of you hope that it is possible. ;) This is a muscle issue and it is something you can heal and correct with much effort and time. I had this starting back in 1999-2000 and precursors of it a couple years earlier. I didn't know how to begin healing or what the real issue was until about 3 or 4 years ago. Even then I spent more time working areas then I needed to and avoided places I thought were not an issue. As it turned out I had to work all muscle groups internal and external to finally pull this thing out of the nose dive. Had I found professional help earlier or had somebody to show me the light I would not have had to discover so much on my own or suffer for as long as I did. I think the Stanford stuff is a great start but I also think there are some things they are missing and this leaves a situation where many people get better but never really find a cure. I think a cure is possible. I'll hit on what my process was and where I am in my progress and you can judge for yourself. ;)

First off, I strongly believe this condition is brought on by sexual behavior and perpetuated by it. I know for myself it was bad bowel habits and holding patterns from a young age as well as sexual holding and edging during masturbation and sex that started the chain reaction (I was a champ in bed and could hold off for ever). ;) In the end, this was all compounded by a level of high stress and propensity toward holding tension in the area. These are not good or healthy behaviors for your pelvis and will result in overuse and stress on the muscle groups involved. At some point your muscles freak out on you and go into spasm. These spasms resulted in most of the symptoms we talk about on this forum. I had urinary issues, prostatitis, and sexual issues including low libido and ED. The last stuff was obviously the most concerning and destructive parts of the whole condition. It lasted the longest and ruined my life. In the beginning I suffered with this stuff for a long time, chasing all sorts of prostatitis cures and taking all sorts of antibiotics and medications. I was stuck in an endless circle of self diagnosis and ridiculously naive thinking about my condition. No doctor--including my father, who is a surgeon--was able to do anything to help in any real way. I was lucky, I lived in SF and finally found an avenue into the whole Stanford/Wise-Anderson Protocol locally. This condition had pretty much ruined my life for about 10 years and changed everything about my world. I lost a lot of time and suffering to this thing and would not wish it on my worst enemy. It strongly contributed to ruining my first marriage, some friendships, and many basic joys that we take for granted in our lives.

So what did I do to start healing? Much of what is talked about in the Stanford/Wise-Anderson Protocol is correct. I think there is a bigger emphasis on paradoxical relaxation then there needs to be but it does help some, especially in union with stretching and massage. The biggest most helpful method hands down is massage. You could do massage alone and come out of this condition but could not do so with stretching or relaxation alone. I can attest to that in a major way. The issue is that massage is difficult and multifaceted. It is a tricky thing to learn to do and has tons of different components and methods. When done incorrectly it can exaggerate and worsen your condition. That's why I thought I'd take a minute to post. I've learned a lot from this forum, physical therapists, doctors, websites, and myself over the years and I've learned a ton from the mistakes I've made or misconceptions I've had. Hopefully what I went through can help some of you avoid the pitfalls that are extremely easy to fall into.

The Stanford/Wise-Anderson Protocol is largely correct in it's method of massage. Massage should be an amount of moderate pressure applied to tender and tight areas enough to get the muscles to move through a full range of motion and hopefully release. That range of motion can tighten them into new stuck and spamming positions at the same time it can also release them. You will get better at delineating which is which, as you work on yourself. One major key I missed for a long time is that many of these muscle groups are connected to each other and tightness in one will result in tightness in others. I now work through all areas in a session even if I feel a particular group is not necessarily in need of massage. I also have discovered you need to go much further into the internal pelvic region then can be done with a finger by yourself or by any PT out there. This is why most people do not find a cure or really never get 100% better. They don't go in far enough and work out all areas and all muscles involved. In the beginning, I spent so much time internally though that I neglected external muscles which in the end contributed more to my condition then I ever thought possible. Don't overlook external muscles. For me the frontal pubic muscles were a mess and they kept the internal muscles in awkward positions as they connected to them through the many intertwined pelvic regions. I ignored this area for years and never found real relief until I started working them out of desperation.

The method I use is as follows: I first work all external lower abdominal muscles, frontal pubic muscles and perineum muscles for about ten minutes by applying moderate pressure and letting them go through a full range of motion. It also helps to work the muscles in the thighs around the area. I largely search around and hunt down tight spots, tender areas, nodules and knots. I then use a tool/wand to gently and moderately work the internal muscles upfront from 1 inch in... all the way up to 7-10 inches in. These deeper areas are where you find lots of discomfort and tightness. Working these places will usually pull the slack muscles from the external areas internally somewhat and realign them. I then go externally again and work the rear muscles and gluteus... especially externally around the sphincter. Lastly I go internally again and hit the muscles running along the dorsal side of the internal pelvis and sphincter. This was a major area in my condition as was the frontal external muscles. In actuality I hit each of these areas for about 10-15 minutes and then go through a basic set of stretches. After that I get up and walk away for at least a couple hours. I let the muscles go into whatever new positions they have adopted... some will spasm while others have released. I live with any discomfort and try to remain calm. This is part of the condition and often sucks to deal with. It will get better as you create a climate of healing in your pelvis. You will also figure out what a release feels like and begin to notice what small techniques work best. I do this in the morning before work and in the evening after work. Often, if I can get away for lunch I do it then as well. Generally, up to three times a day I go through this process very religiously. A hot bath and pelvic drops afterwards is very helpful... especially in the beginning. Sometimes, if I've really flared an area I give it a couple days off. These couple days are usually filled with discomfort but you will only aggravate it if you work on your muscles in this state. Remember this condition takes years to work out. Staying calm and relaxed and doing some mental centering or paradoxical relaxation during the day doesn't hurt anything but I never really found it extremely noticeable.

These basic methods have really pulled me through. I continue to do this set of massages and stretches about every other day or few days now. I have worked out all my symptoms and generally only experience them when I have flared things up. Flares now happen from too much sexual activity as well as the occasional massage done too rigorously. I do not advocate avoiding sex though. You need to train the muscles into what they are going to be doing in life and not shelter them from it. It is important to decreases the activity some and be mindful of how it's preformed, ESPECIALLY in the beginning. Develop good habits but don't shelter yourself from the activity. Make sure to relax afterwards and treat the muscles with respect and kindness. At this point you should be exercising and living a normal life. When normal life flares it up (and it will) make sure to work the muscles again in the same way. It is good to do this even if you feel like you are better. I imagine I will be doing this routine for another 2 years or so in a decreasing manner until this condition is not something that gets stirred up anymore.

Overall, explore the pelvic floor deeper in and work all muscle groups in the area on all sides both internally and externally... Even if you don't think you need to. Above all be kind to yourself and try not to worry. Hope this helps guys and keep up the good fight. If you have any questions about details feel free to ask. ;)

[casperach]

I am getting much better as well but I noticed last night when massaging the pubic bone area that a pain shot to the top of my penis. It's really the only major pain I have left. When you mention pubic muscles what exactly do you mean? Thanks

[tweezerr]

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I was being hopeful that I caught this early enough that I wouldn't have to get that involved in internal PT, mainly cause can't find any TP's on my own and know that I'm going to have to go to a PT's or the Wise clinic to do it. Which I'm totally willing to do, just hoping it won't come to that. I'm giving it another month or 2 before taking the leap to internal TP. I've gotten rid of most of my symptoms except just a dully annoying achy feeling in my perninuem area.

How fast did you start to notice improvements from doing internal PT and TP therapy?

---And like your theory, my chronic prostatitis / chronic pelvic pain syndrome was a direct result of too much sex and Masturbation, read my signature for a brief history. I would always try to last for ever during sex and MB and "edge" for hours. I wish I would've known how damaging that was.

[benzo]

First off, I strongly believe this condition is brought on by sexual behavior and perpetuated by it. I know for myself it was bad bowel habits and holding patterns from a young age as well as sexual holding and edging during masturbation and sex that started the chain reaction (I was a champ in bed and could hold off for ever). ;)

Might very well be a contributing factor, this is identical to my former habits: excessive masturbation, even when in a relation, holding off orgasms forever in the sack, To this very day I can have sex for hours on end without climaxing. I kicked the masturbation habit, also thanks to Effexor.

In the beginning I suffered with this stuff for a long time, chasing all sorts of prostatitis cures and taking all sorts of antibiotics and medications. I was stuck in an endless circle of self diagnosis and ridiculously naive thinking about my condition. No doctor--including my father, who is a surgeon--was able to do anything to help in any real way.

I think everyone on this board has taken tons of medications and vitamin pills before resorting to other treatments, I could have bought a small sports car with what I've spent on supplements. Nowadays, I just eat healthy.

For me the frontal pubic muscles were a mess and they kept the internal muscles in awkward positions as they connected to them through the many intertwined pelvic regions. I ignored this area for years and never found real relief until I started working them out of desperation.

Interesting you say this, I have exactly the same issue with the pyramidalis muscles, which is what you're referring to.
These are always tense and it is very difficult to break down tension. Not sure if the connect to any internal muscles but in itself they can cause a lot of discomfort.
For me the major issues are still discomfort and sensitivity in the scrotum, as well as the pubic bone.

Also, I'm curious about the nodes you are exploring. I have them in different places, pea-like hard cysts. You can move them around a bit and they don't always refer pain. Massaging them doesn't help either because they tend to be quite solid.
Anyone know what these are, I need to ask my pt next time I see him...

Thanks for the update and keep up the good work!

[neue01]

When you mention pubic muscles what exactly do you mean? Thanks

I'm generally referring to the muscles in the lower abdomen or frontal pubic region. These muscles wrap down under the pubic bone and back up internally. You will notice a strong correlation externally and internally with this muscle group. I've have the internal flare the external and the external flare the internal. I now work these areas one after another. This realization and resulting change in my process made a HUGE difference for me. ;)